She takes us through her astounding second album Punisher
This was meant to be a big year for Los Angeles singer-songwriter Phoebe Bridgers.
In June, she released Punisher, her second and most successful record to date.
Around that release, she was to be on the road playing these new songs for her rapidly swelling and fiercely devoted fanbase.
We all know what happened next.
"I was supposed to be on tour with The 1975," Bridgers reflects when speaking with Tim Shiel on Double J.
"We were supposed to play Madison Square Garden.
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"I was doing an interview the day that we were supposed to and they're like, 'Where would you be in the world right now?'
"I was scrolling through my own Instagram to see where I would be and… yeah. I got so emo."
Releasing music while the world is a mess
Rather than wait for the world to emerge through the other side of this catastrophic virus-driven shutdown, Bridgers chose to release the record on schedule.
"We'd finished," she says. "It took forever. I worked on it for so long. I just wanted it out.
"Also, I think I would be bored of it if I waited until this was ending, because nobody knows when it's gonna be over.
"Of course, there's civil unrest in the world, and especially the US right now. That was even thrown around as a reason to delay.
"But I thought that was weird, because the subtext of that to me is like, 'Wait til people forget about what's wrong with the country. Then you can talk about yourself again'.
"I just wanted to give something to people to enjoy however they want it. Even if it's just, wake up in the morning and not listen to the news for a second. That seems nice, even if it is an emo record."
Phoebe Bridgers – PunisherPunisher is such a triumphant record because Bridgers has such a personable way of navigating the tribulations of modern life.
Her stories are gripping, but also familiar. The characters seem like people we know, her problems the type we have worked through ourselves.
The album's title is itself a dig at a certain type of person she's encountered frequently on her travels.
"There's a type of person that comes up to me after a show and says, 'Who's your sound guy? What console is he working on? Because the bass just disappeared halfway through the show. I think I could really help you out'," she explains.
"They just corner you, and you're like 'Why would I ever take advice from you?'
The key difference between a fan and a punisher? Self-awareness.
"A punisher is someone who has no idea that the people they're talking to do not want to be talking to them," Bridgers assures.
"The hard thing about a punisher is that, if you think you are one – if you hear the description, and you're like, 'Oh no! I'm a punisher!' – you're probably not."
The line between fan and punisher might seem murky to the uninformed. But rest easy: artists know true fans when they meet them.
"For me, it's not just a sweet person," she says. "Or even fans who come up to me crying and want to talk about music. That's just Tuesday for me. A normal interaction with people I love.
"I love that about playing music. I think it's super special and singular to what I do."
The highs and lows that make Punisher shine
'Kyoto' is an early highlight of Punisher. Its slightly speedier tempo and the brightness of its melody and instrumentation helps it stand apart from the rest of the album.
Writing songs with this kind of pep does not come naturally to Bridgers.
"'Kyoto' came kind of late," she says.
"I always have this experience with my music where I really want to mail it in. I'm like, 'Oh, we have the single. I don't have to worry about that. I can write nine more miserable songs, as long as we just have that one up-tempo song'.
"'Kyoto' I wrote as a ballad. Then, as an experiment, we sped it up and it turned out to be great.
"That always happens when I record. I'm very surprised by what ends up happening when I actually get into the studio.
"I'm so glad, because fast songs and up-tempo stuff kind of keeps me sane, especially on tour. I feel like I'm gonna pass out if I play too many sad songs in a row."
The collaborators Bridgers works with help to push her into the musical spaces she's less comfortable working in.
"Tony Berg is the co-producer with me and Ethan Gruska; he's always trying to mess up songs," she said.
"Sometimes it does not work at all, but you're always glad you tried, and sometimes it's just the best."
The most popular song from Bridgers 2017 debut Stranger In The Alps was a result of this kind of 'messing up'.
"'Motion Sickness' on my first record, I think it was like a three-day fight," she recalls.
"I really wanted it to be this growing ballad that screams at the end. He was like, 'Nope, it's got drums the whole time. Shut up.' So yeah, I'm very grateful for him."
One of the most attention-grabbing lines on Bridgers' new album comes midway through 'Moon Song', when she sings: 'We hate 'Tears In Heaven / But it's sad that his baby died'
Bridgers confirms she is yet to hear from Eric Clapton, or his people, about the diss. Not that she would care.
"You know, I don't think our Venn diagrams are very connected," she says.
"I have such an Eric Clapton rant, because I think it's just extremely mediocre music, but also he's a famous racist.
"Sometimes I think people are too problematic to be cancelled, or not relevant enough to be cancelled. I mean, it wouldn't even make news if he said something racist today, because he went on a racist rant in the 60s or 70s that was very famous.
"The lyric used to be, 'we hate Eric Clapton'. It's actually kind of worse now. Because it's the dead baby song, which is a heartbreaking song.
"If I were to pick an Eric Clapton song, it's up there with the ones that I actually like. So, it's kind of a lie on the record, but it sounds more poetic."
The line sheds light on a recurring theme in Bridgers' private life. Coming to terms with the poor behaviour of artists whose work you might still admire.
"I end up talking to a lot of older people about music and really butting heads about certain things," she says.
"Music has historically been the easiest for white men that have done a lot of messed up stuff that they should be held accountable for.
"When I was a teenager, that's all I came into contact with. So, I've gotten pretty good at separating art from artists.
"I think it's kind of BS when people say, 'Oh, he's really problematic' and then other people say 'Well his music's horrible anyway'. It's like, that's not the issue.
"John Lennon is problematic. And, you know, he's the best. Incredibly talented and contributed so much to culture and society.
"Late at night, any given night, you could pretty much guarantee that I'm having some version of that [conversation] with any of my older musician friends."
The future
While 2020 has not worked out in any way like Phoebe Bridgers had planned, she isn't particularly concerned. She has plenty to keep her busy.
"My worst case scenario is still pretty good, which is just write and record," she said. "I'm learning how to engineer from my house. That's great.
"For the first time in my adult life, it's a big question mark. And there's something nice about it.
"I think I would feel so much worse if the whole world wasn't going through it, but I can commiserate with whoever I want about it."
Punisher is out now.
Phoebe Bridgers is scheduled to tour Australia in support of The National this December. We'll keep you updated on the status of that tour closer to its proposed commencement.